Curse

Sir Mad · Jul 11, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

VG Justice: yeah that's exactly why I didn't want to talk about Tigers Fury. I tried to use it and add energy issues. Other players don't seem to. So if you're confortable with it, go for it; if you're not, forget it

Concerning hex removers. No, my experience shows I can sucesfully remove empathy. It requires timing and a good communication, but it definitely works. You mail fail and indeed remove another hex instead, sometimes. That's why I bring Remove Hex rather than Smite Hex. It takes longer to cast but the recharge time is better. On a side note I may use remove on Mark of Rodgort as well. Maybe you don't need it but I'm a bit paranoid with this hex since I played with it a few times in RA when I was a newby... Whirling defense or another evading stance will help protect yourself from projectiles, which is VERY usefull when you have Mark of Rodgort (reminder: it makes you catch fire for a fairly long time if you're hit by a firey attack).

Amy, concerning spirits: first off, I think you would have guessed that, I have never suggested anyone to have max WS to bring winno (just dont bring it if you have only 4WS or so). Concerning FW, you know most of the barragers in the eam will have 16 markmanship. The better the best, simple. Why would you take it when someone with the same build will have a more poweful spirit? No indeed you won't die if the carrier of FW has only 12 Mark., but it's not the {i]best{/i] choice.

And why 16 markmanship over 14 (mask + minor rune)? Because that's 2 more damage * 5 barragers = 10 more damage every time the rangers hit barrage for all the 1-6 mobs hit. ie: from 10 to 60 extra damage.

EDIT - Side note to NJudson : you see how it is, no one will 100% agree on a standard buid. It's also a matter of style I gues, and how comfortable you feel with you skillbar.

NJudson · Jul 11, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Thanks for the info on Vigorous Spirit. I hadn't tried it, but sounds like it won't quite work. And as far as personal style goes I'm certainly open to suggestions, but I don't think build variations tends to be the real factor in my short experience in ToPK. Most players seem to know what they're doing, but the real team killers tends to be players dropping out and people lagging.

Maria The Princess · Jul 12, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

to be honest all the builds above work well. anyways i dont think all 5 rangers should go with same skills, so variation is nice as long as Barrage/pet is still there.

lets just say its mostly about the pulling. if your puller is new at this map you WILL die. so before yelling "ILL PULL" make sure you know all the pop ups and patrols like the palm of your hand. you will need about 5 runs to learn them.

good luck

XvArchonvX · Jul 12, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Concerning hex removers. No, my experience shows I can sucesfully remove empathy. It requires timing and a good communication, but it definitely works. You mail fail and indeed remove another hex instead, sometimes. That's why I bring Remove Hex rather than Smite Hex. It takes longer to cast but the recharge time is better. On a side note I may use remove on Mark of Rodgort as well. Maybe you don't need it but I'm a bit paranoid with this hex since I played with it a few times in RA when I was a newby...

I can see where this would be useful at times, but I don't think I'd bring it myself. I wouldn't say that you are wrong to bring it, but I don't think that would be a choice of mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Whirling defense or another evading stance will help protect yourself from projectiles, which is VERY usefull when you have Mark of Rodgort (reminder: it makes you catch fire for a fairly long time if you're hit by a firey attack).

I suppose Whirling Defenses could be useful against Dryder's normal attacks, but beyond that I don't see much use. I guess it depends on whether you believe Grasps or Mark of Rogdort to be a bigger threat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

EDIT - Side note to NJudson : you see how it is, no one will 100% agree on a standard buid. It's also a matter of style I gues, and how comfortable you feel with you skillbar.

Agreed here, as I said, I don't think I would load the same skills you do, but I don't think either your build nor mine is wrong in any sense. Considering most teams can make it well enough with a few people dropping by the end, a couple minor inefficiencies really make no difference in the big picture. Having everyone in a good mood and able to work with eachother while avoiding petty bickering about skill choice will always make everything run smoother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria the Princess

lets just say its mostly about the pulling. if your puller is new at this map you WILL die. so before yelling "ILL PULL" make sure you know all the pop ups and patrols like the palm of your hand. you will need about 5 runs to learn them.

good luck

Aye, this is very true. There are a few things a puller can do to reduce their deaths besides knowing where enemy pop-ups are however. A good strategy for a puller is to lay a dust trap, activate troll, then pull. This will allow the puller to keep health high as well as blind and keep enemies from following too closely after being aggroed. Of course even the best pullers pick up a fair share of deaths every now and again.

Amy Awien · Jul 12, 2006, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Concerning FW, you know most of the barragers in the eam will have 16 markmanship. The better the best, simple. Why would you take it when someone with the same build will have a more poweful spirit?

Well, igf you put it that way, indeed.

Quote:

And why 16 markmanship over 14 (mask + minor rune)? Because that's 2 more damage * 5 barragers = 10 more damage every time the rangers hit barrage for all the 1-6 mobs hit. ie: from 10 to 60 extra damage.

I see your reasoning, on a standard barrage you'd be using nothing but barrage - and on BP the spirits - to inflict damage.

But I can imagine TF + Barrage being more damaging even with lowered Marks (which can still be easily brought to 13 whith 13 expertise and 12 in BM... with 3 major runes and a mask). I'd assume TF + Barrage consumes more energy then can be sustained with 9 expertise.

SnipiousMax · Jul 12, 2006, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I'd assume TF + Barrage consumes more energy then can be sustained with 9 expertise.

Exactly. Which is why I don't use it in a B/P atmosphere. But in other group settings where I'm the only Barrager, I make sure I run at least 13 in Expertise to avoid most energy problems. It still helps to have a zealous mod to switch to if you start to run low.

XvArchonvX · Jul 12, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

One question I would ask of people who run TF + Barrage is whether the increased damage still holds after you decrease Marks to about 14 and switch the Vamp string for a zealous one? I know TF + Barrage with a hornbow does more damage than Barrage with a Flatbow at equal attributes and bow mods, but if you are lowering your marks to 14 and sacrificing your bow mod, you essentially lose 7 damage on each arrow (or if lowering it to 12 as in NJudson's build, the damage is 9 less per arrow).

SnipiousMax · Jul 12, 2006, 04:58 PM // 16:58

I still run 16 in Marks when I use Barrage + Tiger's Fury. I just dont' run the full 10 second Fury, and I use my Major Expertise rune switch armor piece. It comes out to like 7 or eight seconds of TF. I've not had to Switch to a Zealous except when we get an unexpected aggro, or a fight runs longer than normal. I don't know if TF would make up for lowered Marks... But I run it at 16 just in case.

<EDIT> I just realized that this (4/3 barrages) would only be true if the non-tf was using a Hornbow as well... So I removed the part that just doesn't hold true. <EDIT>

<EDITv.2> I went back and found this thread. Using Jeno's numbers from post 37, a flat/short bow will pump out a barrrage every 2.18 seconds. Under TF a Horn bow will do a barrage every 2.01 seconds. So I don't think/know that the 10% Armor pen will completely make up for the damage lost from dropping your marks. <EDITv.2>

halk · Jul 13, 2006, 08:05 AM // 08:05

people i already have a good build and i finished the underworld 5 times now (best drop victos blade, already sold)

i use this build now:
Attributes:
wilderness servival": 9 (not sure)
Expertise: 9+1
Marksmanship: 12+1+3
Protection Prayers: rest at here(3 not sure :P)

skills:
Troll Unguent
Distracting Shot
whiling defens
Barrage {E}
free spot ( ww, fw, dust trap or trow dirt)
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal
rebirth

Rebirth

NJudson · Jul 14, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Ah well....I guess it doesn't really matter what build you use because I'm finding out more and more that ToPK is getting impossible to get through because it's almost impossible to get into a group now that will stay for the whole thing. The past 4-5 times I've tried this one person will drop out about 1/4 to 1/3 the way into it. So we continue, but its slower going. Then a 2nd person will drop out about 1/2 through it. Sometimes we decide to try to continue, but if we do its really slow and deaths start to mount so it basically pointless because I (and I'm sure others as well) set aside about 1 1/2 hours to do this and if your about 30-45 minutes into it and the group starts shrinking then theres not much a point to continue because it could surpass the 1 1/2 hours.

Ah crap...I'm just babbling now, but it is getting really frustrating. The first several times doing ToPK there were very few quitters if any. Now I can't seem to get into a group that isn't infested with quitters.

I guess I just move on and finish the last couple PvE missions and then try my luck with UW or FOW. I never played those before so I hope they're not plagued with quitters as well.

Former Ruling · Jul 14, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Build:
Barrage
Distracting
Savage/Spirit
Comfort
Charm
Troll
Throw
Rebirth

NO REASON AT ALL to bring Whirling 99% of the times, and if you aren't a spirit holder or backup spirit holder you can bring Savage to take out fireballs on the Terrors.

Barrage is your main attack. Distracting is for Metoer Shower and Wurm Siege. Spirits...you know. Savage is a good spirit replacement if you want to interupt fireballs or E-Surges/etc. Comfort and Charm are pet control. Troll is alittle self healing if you arent getting directly attacked. Throw Dirt is incase a Grasp likes a necro better than his minions for dinner, and Rebirth is the prefered rez.

Maria The Princess · Jul 14, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJudson

Ah well....I guess it doesn't really matter what build you use because I'm finding out more and more that ToPK is getting impossible to get through because it's almost impossible to get into a group now that will stay for the whole thing. The past 4-5 times I've tried this one person will drop out about 1/4 to 1/3 the way into it. So we continue, but its slower going. Then a 2nd person will drop out about 1/2 through it. Sometimes we decide to try to continue, but if we do its really slow and deaths start to mount so it basically pointless because I (and I'm sure others as well) set aside about 1 1/2 hours to do this and if your about 30-45 minutes into it and the group starts shrinking then theres not much a point to continue because it could surpass the 1 1/2 hours.

Ah crap...I'm just babbling now, but it is getting really frustrating. The first several times doing ToPK there were very few quitters if any. Now I can't seem to get into a group that isn't infested with quitters.

I guess I just move on and finish the last couple PvE missions and then try my luck with UW or FOW. I never played those before so I hope they're not plagued with quitters as well.

i feel your pain, but it's the network and ANET's servers. lately i noticed the incresed amout of ERR=07 not only on my PC, but also with friends and guildies. and no, my internet is from cable, and hasnt changed for 3 years. my guildies also noticed increase of ppl getting booted with err7, so yah...ToPK is pretty much impossible to make with 8 ppl to the end, or just in general, to the end

NJudson · Jul 14, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

i feel your pain, but it's the network and ANET's servers. lately i noticed the incresed amout of ERR=07 not only on my PC, but also with friends and guildies. and no, my internet is from cable, and hasnt changed for 3 years. my guildies also noticed increase of ppl getting booted with err7, so yah...ToPK is pretty much impossible to make with 8 ppl to the end, or just in general, to the end

Since you brought this up I have received my first ever ERR=07 (at least from what I can recall). So yes I guess you have to account for those possibilities. As far as how many dropouts are unplanned disconnects or deliberate quitting......who knows, but its quite frustrating either way.

Targoyle · Jul 27, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Why, there seems to be little to be gained by increasing marksmanship above 12 and with TF high expertise might be wise.

Again, why? Even with marks at 12 FW still lasts twice as long as it's recharge, 126 seconds vs 60. The same goes for Winnowing, with only 4 points in WS it should last longer then the recharge.

When you are the one that takes FW, the question is not how long will it last in comparison to the recharge time, but how long will it last before you have to put it up again?

Its obvious that you cant put it up to close by the foes or they will kill it before its even recharged. So you have to run out of the fight, put it up, run back in. Even if you run for 1 sec, 5 sec activation time, 1 sec back to the fight. That 7 secs (or 3 barrage shots) you are away from the fight if your FW doesnt last long enough to take down a group.

And there is offcourse the extra dmg per arrow that was mentioned before.

I play tombs as B/p ranger and as orders necro and even when im orders i try to use ATB as often as i can to give the rangers a +2 dmg or +2 life stealing per arrow. Normaly it wouldnt matter a lot, but in barrage it does. dmg is done per arrow so you want the most possible dmg per arrow.

just my 2 cents

wilebill · Jul 27, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

"Barrage is hard to cap" I missed it the first time in Prophecies, but the second time I was face to face with Markis and barely got it before the cutscene. In Factions, about halfway through the game, the second group you fight in the Boreas Seabed Mission has a boss from whom you cap barrage, much much easier.

Amy Awien · Jul 27, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

I almost forgot what this thread was about ...

Yeah, suppose 9 expertise, utility attrib as high as needed and mms as high as possible. Wherever that may lead to. Consider 16 MMS is also -40 HP from 15 MMS.

Those 7 secs, you loose them for setting up a new spirit, no matter what level of MMS you bring. With a lower level you do loose a relatively larger amount of firing time and thus efficiency
@12: 126/(126+7) = 0.95 or 3 out of 66 barrage cycles are missed
@16: 158/(158+7) = 0.96 or 3 out of 83 barrage cycles are missed

darrengordon · Jul 28, 2006, 07:02 AM // 07:02

I use something similar to the above but one point to note the pet health is dependant on the way it is grown ie hearty, dire, elder and its armour id dependant on lvl so it does not matter how much you put in BM the only thing that goes up is its damgage. I tend to use same build but bring read the wind for extra barr damage and a good one is judges insight. Thats the way i do it only done it four times got to end each time and every time got 2 or 3 green drops. Always the bad ones though lol

NJudson · Jul 28, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by darrengordon

I use something similar to the above but one point to note the pet health is dependant on the way it is grown ie hearty, dire, elder and its armour id dependant on lvl so it does not matter how much you put in BM the only thing that goes up is its damgage. I tend to use same build but bring read the wind for extra barr damage and a good one is judges insight. Thats the way i do it only done it four times got to end each time and every time got 2 or 3 green drops. Always the bad ones though lol

I'm not sure about Judge's Insight, but Read the Wind will not work with Barrage. By definition Barrage will remove all preperations when used so it negates any effects of Read the Wind. This is why Favorable Winds and Winnowing is used....because they are spirits, not preperations and can be used with Barrage.

Pick Me · Jul 28, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJudson

I'm not sure about Judge's Insight, but Read the Wind will not work with Barrage. By definition Barrage will remove all preperations when used so it negates any effects of Read the Wind. This is why Favorable Winds and Winnowing is used....because they are spirits, not preperations and can be used with Barrage.

Enchantments and weapon spells will also work with Barrage.

jagosteel226 · Aug 03, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

ok um...

i know in the group each ranger has a dif spirit and fw and winnowing are needed but shouldnt someone else also have predatory season?

5 enemies together = 25 life steal or even 50 if u have a max vamp bow

pred season also reduces healing kind of like deep wound on evryone but since the barragers are getting all their health from pred season its a great addition, this also means rangers can spend more point into beast mastery and expertise instead of using wild survival just to use troll unguent